Program: Queers are meant to have kids

Yumi Stynes
It's World Pride 2024, and even though it's very late, Narelda Jacobs and her partner, Karina Nat, are still on the dance floor at a queer party called Loose Ends on Sydney's Oxford Street. Narelda is a Whadjuk Noongar journalist and presenter originally from Perth. You might know her from the Channel 10 News or from Studio 10 and The Project. And she's iconic on our screens for being a proud Indigenous woman who's been out of the closet for 30 years while existing on mainstream TV. Did I mention the word iconic? She and Karina met the year before and did the cliche lesbian thing of moving in together within minutes of meeting. And by the time they're on the dance floor on this fateful night, they know they're in it for the long haul. Their dear friend Mitch is partying with them, and Narelda sees him glowing on the dance floor and gets the strong feeling that now is the time to have a really life changing conversation.

Narelda Jacobs
I said to Karina, go and ask him.

Yumi Stynes
Karina and Narelda have something very important they want to talk to Mitch about.

Karina Natt
I feel like it was just like, oh, there's Mitch and like the spotlight is on him. And I think the words I used were NJ sent me over here to ask you for your sperm.

Yumi Stynes
NJ, by the way, is Narelda Jacobs. NJ,

Karina Natt
yep, to ask you for your sperm. I think that's what I said. And he was probably like, what? And I was like, your sperm- What? You want a perm?

Yumi Stynes
My stan account?

Yumi Stynes
This early morning conversation shouted over deafening dance music would lead Narelda and Karina to the extraordinary experience of becoming parents. But the birth of baby Sanna also excited bigoted trolls who had opinions on how babies should be made and weren't afraid to share those opinions with the couple. As a clap back to the haters, Narelda and Karina have written a satirical picture book for adults called If Queers Weren't Meant to Have Kids. It's a joyful and funny celebration of chosen families. I'm Yumi Stynes. Ladies, we need to talk about rainbow families with Narelda Jacobs and Karina Natt.

Yumi Stynes
Under the glow of the mirror ball, Karina was waiting for Mitch to give her an answer.

Karina Natt
He obviously said yes straight away. And then I was like, Baby, come over, like gesturing to Narelda. Come over, come over. He said yes. And then we all hugged and cried.

Yumi Stynes
And after the highs worn off and you've gotten home and, you know, the sequins and the glitter is on your pillow. Yes. In the cold light of day, did you check back in with Mitch? And how did that convo go?

Karina Natt
Yeah. So we sent him a message and said something along the lines of "we would love to have you over this week to pick up that conversation. And just make sure that you mean it." We meant it. But we don't want to hold you to a conversation at 3am under the mirror ball at Loose Ends on Mardi Gras night. And he was like, "no, I'm all in, but I'll come over for dinner anyway." There was just never any doubt.

Yumi Stynes
I just got goosebumps and eyes filling with tears. That's so beautiful. How old is Mitch?

Karina Natt
Oh, I think he's 37.

Yumi Stynes
He looks 22. I was like, are you old enough to be a dad?

Karina Natt
He's not old enough to be a daddy. No, he's not a daddy. But he's in the gay way, but he's definitely old enough to be a dad.

Yumi Stynes
Oh, yeah. How did you settle on Mitch? Like, did you go through a bunch of candidates?

Karina Natt
No, there was there was never any question that it would be Mitch, if it was anyone. He is just the perfect man for us to make a family with. We would have had a bit of a problem if Mitch had said no. Although we do have many beautiful men in our chosen family that we could ask. But when we told people, oh, we're going to make a baby with Mitch, they said, oh, good choice. And so we've nicknamed Mitch good choice GC, because that's what people think of him.

Narelda Jacobs
He was also our best friend.

Yumi Stynes
How did you decide that you wanted a baby?

Narelda Jacobs
I already had one who was 30

Karina Natt
Yeah she does!

Narelda Jacobs
I had a fully grown adult, big baby. And we always talked about having a baby, but like a fantasy baby. Did you ever before you had a baby ever talk about a fantasy baby?

Narelda Jacobs
Yeah, fantasise about it.

Karina Natt
You name them and just give them a personality in mind. And you know, they'd be so good looking. Yeah. And like so smart and just, yeah, conquering the world.

Narelda Jacobs
Well, we always knew that Karina would be an amazing mum. And so that's how it started from little conversations like that.

Yumi Stynes
But starting with a little conversation to turning it into a reality, that's a that's a big leap.

Karina Natt
Yeah. I mean, it didn't take us too long, but we are lesbians, so we do everything at gay speed, like super fast, I guess. At the end of 2023, I think it was, I started to have a conversation with the GP, like, should I check my fertility? I have adenomyosis, like I'm 38. I think I was at the time, like maybe I should consider what is possible, actually. And I had a gynecologist tell me years and years ago when I got diagnosed with the adenomyosis. If you want to know if you're fertile, try and get pregnant. Don't worry about doing a blood test. And I was like, OK, yeah, but that's a little tricky as a lesbian. But nevertheless, that's the energy that we took into making our baby. Let's just try.

Narelda Jacobs
Just give it a shot. Yeah.

Yumi Stynes
With Mitch designated baby daddy, Karina and Narelda decided on the turkey-baster method.

Karina Natt
Mitch's mum is a nurse and she supplied us with some items, syringes of varying sizes, some that I don't know where they're supposed to fit, and some cups, specimen cups.

Narelda Jacobs
And also gloves.

Karina Natt
Gloves? That was odd.

Narelda Jacobs
And then we just researched, like, how to do it. Karina became citizen scientist with her ovulation, especially. Oh. Because there were a couple of attempts. And then she was like, I know we've got to get serious about this. And really, you know, there's a very small window of opportunity here. And Karina set about finding what that window was.

Karina Natt
Yeah. We did by the calendar as well as the ovulation test. And when I saw this surge of hormone, I was like, Mitch, get over here. I think it's like I think it's real. I think it's time. It's time. Come over. And he's like, I've got dinner plans. Yeah. I'll come in the morning. I'll come in the morning. No pun intended.

Narelda Jacobs
So before work, before work, we leave him to it while we go for a walk around the block. Didn't take very long. I think we only got halfway around the block.

Yumi Stynes
That same day, Karina and Nerelda put on some Taylor Swift and set about making use of Mitchell's sample in the most romantic way possible. And then they waited.

Karina Natt
We didn't do anything for two weeks. I didn't test. And after I thought it had been long enough that I should have got my period, I was like, OK, let's pee on a stick. And we did. And we were pregnant.

Narelda Jacobs
And we were in shock. Yeah. We were like, oh, my God, it worked.

Yumi Stynes
How did that news settle after the initial shock had passed?

Narelda Jacobs
I think we were just so proud of ourselves. And they say that the turkey baster method is quite accurate.

Karina Natt
Straight people use it when they like need assistance getting pregnant. Because you can get closer to the cervix with the syringe.

Narelda Jacobs
And some people that we have spoken to after that, they were like, oh, yeah, we did turkey baster too. Fell pregnant, first pop. We just felt so proud of ourselves. And then it was the joy of telling everyone. And it was so beautiful. Like that was like little bombs of confetti and like rainbow confetti going off like all over the place. It was just so beautiful to see. Yeah, to see the joy that this person would have another family member, you know, to be a gunkle or an auntie or a veity. It was just really, yeah, it's just really gorgeous to do that.

Yumi Stynes
So a gunkle is a gay uncle? Yes. Yep. And a theyty is a they them. Yes. Auntie, uncle, auntie, aunt

Narelda Jacobs
Equivalent.

Yumi Stynes
Equivalent. OK, so it was bursts of joy. And you announced it on social media, which I remember. I remember going, oh, my God, Narelda, like you've already had a kid and you've grown and they're well out of nappies. The tricycle's been recycled. Yes. And your daughter, Jade, is like a fully launched. What's the word? Self-actualized adult. Oh, I love that. It's good, isn't it? Yeah. And yet you're willing to go back there again. Did you have any thoughts about, oh, wow, this is really going back in the trenches of being an early parent?

Narelda Jacobs
I just remember when when Jade was about to be independent. So, you know, 15, 15, 16, I was like, woohoo, woohoo, I can travel the world. I can do all these amazing things. And I did do that. But how much of that do you need in a lifetime? You know, it has been a fantastic life, but I have a lot of love to give. And I always dreamt of being surrounded by children as I grew old.

Yumi Stynes
And, Karina, did you always see yourself as becoming a parent?

Karina Natt
I wasn't sure. Like, I have always had a dog and like I loved my I had a dog, bought a collie for 16 years. And, you know, I was like, it's fine. I'm just a dog mum. Like, maybe that's all there is going to be for me. And I guess when we started dating, I didn't think that more children would be four and older because, yeah, because Jade was nearly 30. But then having now had Sanna, I'm like, oh, yeah, I was always meant to do this. So it's definitely been that realisation for me.

Yumi Stynes
I think where it gets interesting for me as an observer is we're having so many conversations on this podcast about being allowed to choose not to have children and how heterosexual women are really sort of boxed into this expectation. And lesbian women, I feel, are given a bit of a pass to be able to be child free and without attendant pressures. So for you to go, OK, yeah, I can actually choose to be a dog mum, but I'm going to open this up and make a human baby, which is such a responsibility. Yeah. It's pretty impressive to me.

Karina Natt
Thank you. Well, I mean, also, I have felt all of those pressures of why we shouldn't have children in a climate crisis, living unsustainably as humans are. But progressives need to breed. We must have children. Otherwise, we're only going to have conservatives having babies and they're probably going to have conservative children.

Narelda Jacobs
So we have to have four more. Just kidding. Just kidding.

Yumi Stynes
I've had a few extras. So speaking of conservatives and the pushback, when you made the announcement, I know there was a huge surge of support and people so excited, but then there was a follow on of trolling and abuse. Can you tell our listeners some of the things that were said to you?

Narelda Jacobs
Yeah, they said that our baby was going to grow up with mental health issues and in an abusive home. Yeah,

Karina Natt
That we're abusers, that a baby must have a father. I think what happened was because it was really supportive at first. And then I assume that these kind of posts get shared to like MRA accounts and and so on. And and so all of these angry men come to tell us how awful we are for depriving a child of a man in their life, a father. But we didn't fight back because obviously we're not going to argue with the trolls. But even though we knew, which we didn't announce at the time, we knew that Mitch was Sanna's dada and that he would be in her life. We felt that if we were pointing that out to these people, then we were, I guess, undermining the importance of other families who haven't made that same choice that that we did to have a known donor. We know that the reality is that children of rainbow parents do better often than those of heterosexual parents because they are so intentional. They're brought into this world with so much love and purpose. And they have very good relationships with their parents, according to the research. So we were like, yeah, you're wrong.

Narelda Jacobs
We wondered what two dads get. You know, we know what we got. We've since found out because we do like to ask gay dads, you know what they get and they they get people saying that they're predators. Wow. And it's really heartbreaking. You know, there's something that kicks in like when people attack you, you can kind of it just washes off you. But when when people attack others, you feel it more. And and that may be really sad to think that these loving men who have created their families with as much intention as we have are being called predators. That's really heartbreaking.

Yumi Stynes
Why did you decide to write your adult picture book If queers weren't meant to have kids?

Karina Natt
Well, we knew that there would be a little bit of interest in, I guess, specifically in the road to having a baby at almost 50. But we also knew that we would get trolled for being two women having a baby. So we thought, OK, how can we get ahead of some of that and take the sting out of it? But how can we also share our story in a positive way that shows how natural it is for queer people to become parents?

Yumi Stynes
And in the book, I noticed that there are people from real life from your real life village represented so beautifully as part of your in the book village. How has your village embraced Sanna?

Narelda Jacobs
Oh, gosh, she she's their child. That's yeah. There's nothing more to it. Yeah,

Karina Natt
She's the baby. She is the baby for the village. And yeah, we were very lucky to be able to have her and create her with, with Mitch and not everybody in the village will have the same opportunity. And so Sanna is also for those members of our chosen family who might not have a child of their own. She is just so loved and we knew she would be. And that's why that love is depicted so strongly in our book.

Yumi Stynes
Tell me about the birth.

Narelda Jacobs
It was a long labor. We were in pre-labour for a long time.

Karina Natt
I woke up about 3.30 a.m. on International Women's Day. Actually, I thought and I just felt period pain, but I was like, but it's happening every 10 minutes. So I think this is actually a contraction. So I just laid there for three hours and then Narelda woke up and I said, baby, I think I'm in labour. And she's like, what? Do you want to go to hospital? I'm like, no, nothing's really changed for three hours. You've been in labour for three hours. And so we just went about our day.

Yumi Stynes
Narelda had helped plan and curate the very big All About Women festival that's held at the Sydney Opera House and was to take place the very next day.

Karina Natt
So we also had to sort out what needed to happen there in case I was still in labour during the festival.

Narelda Jacobs
Wow. Yes. I forgot about this. And two of the sessions I curated, I desperately wanted to moderate and I didn't want to give it to anybody else to do. And so I was emailing and emailing and emailing the Opera House going, I know, I think I can do it. Like we're in labour, but I can do it.

Karina Natt
And I was like, I don't want you to miss out on this. Incredible session. It's like if I've had the baby, we'll be fine at the hospital. You can go.

Narelda Jacobs
When you work so much and work is life. You don't think you can have a break even when your wife is about to give birth. Totally. Oh, stupid. So 11 o'clock that night on Saturday, we went in.

Karina Natt
We got in there and they're like, oh, congratulations, you're four centirmetre's dilated. Would you like to go back home until you're a little more dilated? I'm like, no, we're here now.

Karina Natt
The walk down the corridor was like, we're ready to give birth! What are you talking about to go home? Speed this up. Like, isn't this like nearly about to happen? And so it went on and on and on.

Yumi Stynes
In the early hours of the morning, Good Choice Mitch arrived just in time to supply the birthing mum with some essential sustenance.

Narelda Jacobs
Karina just wanted a drink of Coke, so Mitch brought in some Coke and lollies and things. Um, 8:18 a.m. Sunday morning. So she took her time.

Yumi Stynes
Yeah, she took her sweet, sweet time. I love that he had to bring you a Coke. So I'm summoning my bogan witch and she's going to ask for a Coke and you're going to get me a fucking Coke.

Karina Natt
I didn't have any pain relief, but I had Coke.

Narelda Jacobs
It was a two person support job, so we're very happy that Mitch came.

Yumi Stynes
And so Mitch was there for the birth?

Narelda Jacobs
Yep.

Yumi Stynes
Wow. And what was that moment like when you first held Sanna?

Narelda Jacobs
It was a really beautiful moment. Karina just had this animalistic strength that just came from nowhere because it had been with pre-labor, it was like 28 hours or something. And she just mustered up all this strength and just pushed out the baby in a very serene way. Just arms went straight out to get the baby on the chest. Like the baby had always been there. Wow. Yeah, it was just this really beautiful moment.

Yumi Stynes
What sort of world do you hope Sanna will inherit?

Narelda Jacobs
I mean, of course, we would love to say an equal and equitable world, but it's not always going to be that way. But just be aware that there's always going to be something to fight for so that we can be equal and equitable.

Yumi Stynes
Karina, what sort of world do you want to see for your baby?

Karina Natt
Oh, it's such a big question. I mean, changing the world for her was obviously an inspiration or I guess a purpose of this book. I would like for her to be able to go to school and not be seen as any different because she has two mums, probably at just the most basic level, to be seen as a natural conception. And completely normal. And maybe people will even look at her and think, oh, she's really loved.

Yumi Stynes
Congratulations, both of you on the birth of your beautiful baby and your book as well. Thank you.

Narelda Jacobs
Thank you.

Yumi Stynes
Thanks for joining us today.

Karina Natt
Thanks for having us. Love you.

Yumi Stynes
This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungurra, Gadigal and Muwinina peoples. Ladies, we need to talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencor, produced by Elsa Silberstein and Sarah Mashman. Supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.